UCD readies for strike; will regents attend meeting?
On Monday, the University of California regents are likely to get an earful about the pepper-spraying of nonviolent protesters, but no appointed regents may be on the Davis campus to listen.
Meeting by teleconference, the UC Board of Regents will take public comment from four campuses between 9 and 10 a.m. At UCD, public comment will be taken in the Activities and Recreation Center ballroom.
Occupy UC Davis also has called for a systemwide strike on Monday.
Whether any appointed regents actually will be on campus remains up in the air, The Enterprise has learned, because their presence likely would prompt additional security. As of Saturday afternoon, only student regent Alfredo Mireles Jr. and student regent designate Jonathan Stein were expected at UCD.
University of California spokesman Pete King said Saturday that it’s up to each regent to choose which venue to attend.
“There is no expectation of student violence, which we applaud, which we endorse,” King said.
However, he added, “We are cognizant of (UCD) Chancellor (Linda) Katehi’s pledge to students to keep police presence on campus minimal until the campus works through that process and begins to heal. We think that’s starting to happen, and we don’t want to jeopardize that.”
Security plans
About 75 officers from UC Davis, UC Irvine and several Yolo County law-enforcement agencies are expected on the campus Monday, though “they won’t all be quite visible,” said Adam Thongsavat, president of the Associated Students of UCD, who has been working with campus police in preparation for Monday.
“We’re very encouraging of as little police presence as possible,” Thongsavat said. “It’s a show of faith for our students and for a peaceful process.”
People entering the ARC facility should expect metal-detecting security wands and possible pat-downs.
However, “the point of security is not to quell any protests or silence anyone,” Thongsavat said. “We need to make sure that everyone is safe, that people and property are taken care of, and that people have a chance to speak and exercise their rights.”
Last week, Katehi asked for the help of protesters camped on the Quad in maintaining calm during the regents meeting. She agreed to try to arrange a meeting between protesters and regents.
Use of force likely will be subject No. 1 when the regents hear from the public.
Geoffrey Wildanger, a UCD graduate student, said protesters also will repeat a call for Katehi’s resignation.
“We need to send a very clear message that if administrators call riot police on peaceful demonstrators, they will lose their jobs,” Wildanger said.
On Nov. 18, about 35 officers cleared the Occupy UC Davis tents from the Quad, arresting nine students and one alumnus, then — in a moment since shown around the world — pepper-spraying about a dozen more.
Annette Spicuzza, UCD’s police chief; Lt. John Pike, the incident commander who pepper-sprayed protesters; and one other officer, who has not been named; are on administrative leave pending the results of investigations into what happened.
The UCD protest came partially in response to one a week earlier at UC Berkeley, during which police with batons jabbed student and faculty protesters, including 70-year-old former U.S. poet laureate Robert Hass.
The protesters have called on faculty to join Monday’s walkout, canceling classes or teaching on the Quad.
As of Saturday, about 20 teach-ins tentatively were planned for the Quad on such subjects as the history of nonviolent resistance.
Wildanger said students also hope to spotlight their core reason for protesting: the rapid privatization of the University of California, which has embraced what’s sometimes called a high fees/high aid model.
“The UC model of inexpensive or free education with low teacher-student ratios is on the chopping block,” Wildanger said.
Under UC’s Blue and Gold Opportunity Plan, students whose families earn less than $80,000 per year are to have their educational and student service fees fully covered.
Not only are those whose families earn more taking on higher debt, however, Blue and Gold covers only the first four years at a UC campus. That is at a time when classes are growing, sections are being cut and faculty hiring has stopped or slowed.
Davis and Berkeley are two campuses that have announced plans to hire more faculty, but do so by admitting more students who pay higher, nonresident fees.
Critics of UC say tuition money — which, unlike state funds, is unrestricted in its use — also can be used to fund administrative pay raises or as collateral for building projects.
UC officials repeatedly have said that revenue from tuition is pledged as security for bonds, but not used to pay back bonds on construction projects.
Tuition hikes for this academic year are not on Monday’s regents meeting agenda.
UC spokesman Steve Montiel said last week that tuition hikes have never been on this agenda, despite rumors to the contrary. Regents will be discussing the proposed expenditure budget for 2012-13, the basis for UC’s funding request to the state.
The board’s agenda and a link to live audio are available at http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents.
In September, the regents shot down an administration plan that would have increased tuition by 8 to 16 percent each year from 2012 to 2016, depending on support from the state budget.
Third-year UCD student and protester Muneenza Rizvi said she hopes Monday’s strike will mark the shift of control away from “disconnected administrators, corrupt regents and other plutocrats to those of students and educators who must live with the oppressive decisions these groups make.”
“The palpable discontent and fear on campus is a glaring signal that this process is long overdue,” Rizvi wrote in an email message.
About 15 protesters remained on the Quad on Saturday, keeping the encampment going during the Thanksgiving break. Others were away planning strike activities.
In other news:
Katehi to meet with faculty
The chancellor, Provost Ralph Hexter and Interim Police Chief Matt Carmichael are scheduled to appear at a faculty and staff town hall meeting at 4 p.m. Tuesday in Freeborn Hall.
The board of the 112-member Davis Faculty Association has called for Katehi to step down, as have members of the English and physics departments.
About a dozen other programs and departments, as well as individual professors, have called for fact-finding or an apology from Katehi.
The UCD Academic Senate, with about 1,200 active and emeriti faculty members, has not taken an official position on the chancellor. It is conducting its own investigation.
In an open letter, Fred Wood, vice chancellor for student affairs, called Nov. 18 the “darkest day” in his 30 years with the campus.
“I am weary of blame,” he wrote. “At some point in the coming days, weeks and months, I hope we can all find our way to move beyond the blaming, and to instead focus on the healing.”
Bratton choice under fire
Some UC faculty members are raising concern about the choice of William Bratton to lead an independent investigation of the arrests and pepper-spraying, the Los Angeles Times reports.
Bratton is the former chief of the Los Angeles Police Department, where his tenure included a 2007 incident in which cops beat protesters and journalists. He earlier told the newspaper that he was proud of the subsequent probe into that incident and hoped to provide UCD with a similar report.
Katehi requested the investigation. UC President Mark Yudof selected Bratton and plans to assemble an as-yet-unannounced panel of Davis campus students, faculty, staff and other community members.
Katehi has asked that the panel make recommendations to her by Dec. 21. Her plan of action will then be taken to Yudof.
In interviews with the Times, members of the California Faculty Association, a group representing a portion of the faculty at each of the UC system’s 10 campuses, raised concern about Bratton’s history, the fee Bratton will charge as the head of a security consulting firm, and Yudof’s role.
“The Office of the President should not be investigating itself in this matter, when one thing that needs to be investigated is what role the office had,” said UC Santa Cruz professor Robert Meister, president of the Council of UC Faculty Associations.
A UC spokesperson told the paper that the contract with Bratton was still being finalized, but that he typically charges about $300 per hour.
The investigation is one of four planned, Katehi told The Enterprise last week.
King Hall profs praise protesters
The UCD School of Law clinical program has penned a letter to Katehi condemning the police use of chemical weapons.
“We believe the police used excessive force and we condemn any UC Davis policy that permits the use of force or chemical weapons against nonviolent protesters,” reads the letter.
It is signed by professors Holly Cooper, Raha Jorjani and Amagda Perez, who serve as faculty advisers for the school’s immigration clinic, and Carter White, adviser to its civil rights clinic.
They praise the students for nonviolent civil disobedience that has “opened a dialogue at UC Davis and created a space for our students to critically analyze police policies and the meaning of public education.”
They also stress that the root of student unrest has been “a question of which we must not lose focus — the social and economic accessibility of public education for students of color, LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning) students and students from low-income communities.”
They urge Katehi to: “take meaningful steps” to reduce tuition; expedite an independent investigation and discipline those responsible for the police response; not pursue academic penalties against students taking part in nonviolent protests; and enact new administrative protocols to avoid a repeat of the event.
They also urge Katehi to push for the misdemeanor charges against 10 protesters to be dropped, a step she announced last week that UCD would take.
— Enterprise staff writer Lauren Keene contributed to this report. Reach Cory Golden at cgolden@davisenterprise.net. Follow him at http://twitter.com/cory_golden
Short URL: http://www.davisenterprise.com/?p=109868
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Posted by Cory Golden
on Nov 26 2011.
Last Login: Mon 21 May 2012 03:57:15 PM PDT
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In addition to Katehi, Vice Chancellor Meyer must go as well. Despite his knowledge of the success of the culture of tolerance for political protest on the UCD campus because his many years here, he acknowledged during the Town Hall meeting that he ordered riot police on campus because of what happened in Oakland, and “frankly, Berkeley”. One can only gasp at the horrible judgment that Meyer displayed in doing so, as if Oakland and Davis have similar records when it comes to protest, and his reference to Berkeley was offensive, given that the students in Berkeley were victims of police brutality. He was obviously willing to endanger the students in order to placate Katehi and UC President Yudof by suppressing a protest that, in the past, UCD has tolerated several times, such as during the anti-apartheid tent city of the mid-1980s. He really needs to resign as well, just like Katehi, in order for the university to escape the turmoil that has engulfed it.
The 1st amendment is NOT a green light to break the law nor resist. As someone who has been harassed /cited for illegal camping due to homelessness I find it Very upsetting that people can discriminate against the homeless in this manner. Homeless camp = citation, OCCUPY camp = a civil right. NO IT IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST THE HOMELESS. As far as UCD a) they were BREAKING THE LAW ON PURPOSE by blocking the walkway. B) they refused to respond to both written and many verbal warnings and were even told that they would be sprayed and there responce was Fine Spray Us. C) When officers attempted to physically move them THEY RESISTED.
For what it’s worth, Mr. Adler, one of the things I hope that Occupy will result in is the overturning of the laws that discriminate against homeless people (e.g., illegal camping, sit/lie, providing food in public). It’s not the only result of Occupy I’d like to see. But I’d consider it a win.
As a faculty member, I sympathize with the students who must deal with
the ever-increasing tuition cost and fees. But…
Strike? Give me a break. Aren’t you guys paying big bucks to STUDY?
If you commitment to your own education is so low, you might as well
quit and go home. Go to every single class, study hard, ace your exams,
and THEN protest. It’s your DUTY to study hard. Even with the expensive
tuition you are paying now, there are more tax money spent to keep up
the classrooms, pay the TAs, building student facilities, and yes, free
electricity and WiFi to those illegally camping out at the quad. Strike should
be the LAST thing that a hard-working responsible UC student should
come up with. Final exams are next week, for god’s sake.
I’ll teach like usual on Monday. As far as I have seen, there is no
noticeable decline in attendance due to the protest. At least majority
of my students are focused on studying, hopefully.
@HY,
You’re missing the whole point of the strike, which is to SAVE the university.
Brian,
You are missing the whole point of University, which for the students is to LEARN. The students can protest all they want, AFTER they fulfill their duty to study. Wasting the taxpayers’ (and their own) money by giving up their privilege (not right) to attend classes is not the right way gain public support for their cause.
As a faculty member, it is my duty to teach the >99% of my students who still want to study and who have paid dearly to learn on Monday.I can’t imagine any other conscientious faculty members taking a vacation on Monday if there’s even a single student out of 500 that has a desire to attend their classes.
HY,
I believe it is you who is missing the point. While I agree that the university is a place to learn, I think you need to rethink your definition of the word learn. I have learned much from the protesters, I have learned how to fight against bureaucracy. I have learned to organize my community around issues that affects the entire nation (and world.) I have learned that even though some people have gone through school and earned their PhD that they still haven’t learned to think critically.
Please sir, we are on your team. We all study, we all pay tuition, we all get to choose whats important to us. As a faculty member, maybe you should teach some of your students to stand up and fight injustice instead of bending over and taking it.
I am a grad student. Can’t you try to think in terms of the big picture?
I’ll respond to the only comment here that says nothing.
Ya have a context for that comment? People get lost in big pictures. Is your lens political or economical. If your a student I would salute you if your bigger picture for now is to get that degree and go out and make a better country for working stiffs like myself. These dumb fux are not the masses nor the 99% and neither are they being legally or politically wronged. Just the opposite, being young and our hope they are recipients of ridiculous tolerance, preferences and concern even as they attempt to destroy other peoples lives.
They are both self avowed and unwitting Marxists with behind the scenes radical professors and chaos and anarchy are how Marxism is initiated but they will fail. We need them to remind us of how fortunate we are but they are correct about the corruption even if it is less pronounced here than elsewhere in the world. Going global ensures the worlds blatant corruption will become the norm here also.
Like to hear your bigger picture.
I am not arguing the cause of your protest, but the tactics. Specifically, striking, sitting out your classes, duties to teach, etc. You should not forget that we are funded, at least partially, by the hard-earned taxpayers’ money. The unemployment rate is over 11% in California. K-12 schools are even in worse shape than UC. How do you convince the voters that spending more money on UC is worthwhile when the students themselves are walking out of the classrooms?
“How do you convince the voters that spending more money on UC is worthwhile when the students themselves are walking out of the classrooms?”
There are many ways. For example, it draws attention from the public to things that matter. By doing so we underscore the necessary support of accessible public education, which I hope we can agree is and has been a tremendous benefit to the state and nation.
You are an exception, but most of the people I know understand that students are doing this for the sake of their education and others’, not forsaking it.
Do you purport that the best way to learn in college is by taking your class? Honestly, I’d rather listen to someone who can improve my ability to think.
>There are many ways. For example, it draws attention
> from the public to things that matter. By doing so we
> underscore the necessary support of accessible public
> education, which I hope we can agree is and has been
> a tremendous benefit to the state and nation.
Strike may attract some attention, but not necessarily in a good way. It could give some voters and legislators an excuse to further reduce UC funding. You have to understand that not all Californians agree that public universities are “tremendous benefit to the state and nation”. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be in this financial mess to begin with. That’s why you have to be careful HOW you express your opinion.
>You are an exception, but most of the people I know
> understand that students are doing this for the sake
> of their education and others’, not forsaking it.
What you feel is not so relevant as how the general voters, taxpayers, and legislators feel about your actions that offend their existing support. For every right and privileges, there are duties that you have to fulfill.
>Do you purport that the best way to learn in college
> is by taking your class? Honestly, I’d rather listen
> to someone who can improve my ability to think.
I never said that going to classes is the only way or the best way to learn. It is your DUTY as a student of public-supported institution to put classes and other academic activities before any protests or other social activities. Doing otherwise is like spitting at your benefactors.
@HY: Please, you really must take a philosophy class and learn how to think in terms of fundamentals.
@HY: And….there won’t BE a university in which students can learn if we don’t save it. Hence, the general strike.
Don’t flatter yourself. There will be a university no matter what you do. Those who put protests before their privilege to study don’t deserve public sponsored education to begin with.
I meant that it won’t be a public university. We are trying to save the concept of the public university, something that made California what it is today, enabling innovations in agriculture, computing, and many more areas.
And you do that by strike? As a taxpayer who partially pay for your classes and salaries of the faculty and staff, I would be even less enthusiastic about funding UC where students rather sit out of their classes.
As a faculty member who spends so much time and effort teaching the classes, I am so disappointed that some students are so arrogant and stupid enough to show their appreciation of their (even if expensive) privilege by wasting everyone’s time and money.
I am not saying the students shouldn’t protest. But their top priority should be to study because not only that’s what they are paying to do, but because the public is paying for some of it too. Sitting out of the classes the stupidest way to show the public that their education is worth investing the taxpayers money.
It seems that you don’t grasp the concept of some things being fundamental to others. The existence of the university as a public institution is the fundamental issue. When the existence of the university is threatened, then drastic action is called for.
Again, you are flattering yourself. This “strike” is nothing “drastic”. Most of the students will go to classes as they should and most, if not all, faculty will teach as they should. If anything, it will further tarnish our image as a serious academic institution, and give some voters and legislators an excuse to further erode support for UC.
As students and faculty of a public university, there is no justification for self-centered “strike” from our academic activities. You can express your opinion and protest all your want, but that should be done outside the classrooms which are supported by our taxpayers generosity.
HY,
I am a faculty member and I also support the students. I agree with your critics that there will be no “public” university if we all don’t take a stand. To say that the strike is just about canceling class misses the point. There are some of the most interesting teach-ins this week on topics that relate to what is happening in California, at the UC and what happened last week on our campus. These are not quarter-long classes. They are hour-long talks all day long, even by some of our most prestigious faculty. You can’t tell me that this is not important to our students education? I too want to prepare my students for their exams. But not every detail of what we teach is THAT important, don’t you agree? And if it is that important, they will most certainly learn it in due time if it is important to them. These protests, the strike, the teach-ins ARE important right now and I think we should be flexible and supportive of our students. While you might be trying to speak for some taxpayers in California, how do you really know how the taxpayers feel? Our own legislature won’t even allow CA to vote on it. I find your perspective myopic and I would suggest that you consider some of the alternative ways of education that others have already mentioned. I thnk it is important to find alternative ways of education and look at the creative and invigorating ways our campus is dealing with the crisis we face.
MS
Teach-in’s and are perfectly fine, but that has nothing to do with calling for a general strike to stop what we are paid by our taxpayers to do, which is to teach and do reasearch. Why can’t you teach your class AND go to teach-in’s, go to protests etc. You certainly aren’t teaching all day, are you?
It’s appalling that there are faculty members (not just students) who take the fact that we are sponsored by the public so lightly. No wonder we have been facing such rough public support lately.
HY- I really think you’re too into the idea of a student’s ‘duty’. Students skip your classes because their team is playing a game out of town. They skip because they’re going skiing. They skip because they’re drunk/hung-over. Skipping class to attend a protest relevant to campus is better than all of those.
Again, with reference to ‘duty’: even if I were to grant you that they do have some ‘duty’ to study hard at a public institution (and I disagree with you there), they are adults and can decide how best to spend their time. Attending every class is not the same as studying hard. I bet they can do quite well on your exam even if they miss your class today.
You really seem to not understand the entire point of a protest or a strike, if you think it should be done around your work. Do you think that anyone ‘paid by the public’ should never strike?
HY, I strongly recommend that you attend a few of the teach-ins about the history of strikes and protests. It seems to me that you are perhaps new to American culture and that this is an important part of our history and something we all should be very aware of as we move forward. Think where we would be today if Martin Luther King Jr had not led us through peaceful protests. Do you think people understood what was happening then? It is usually in hindsight that we can better grasp the impact of a movement. I am sure some tax payers agree with you. But in the end, the impact of this movement and the positive outcome is what is important, not the momentary taxpayer’s concern. In the long run, we want a healthy and fair society (physical and financial health). The long-term implications of privatizing the university will have a very negative impact on the future of California including a culture of alumni who have too much debt to purchase homes, move forward or continue to live here. Think about it.
I taught several classes today, but actually saw more students attending than usual. I saw all my colleagues teaching as usual, our staff placed my orders, I received my mail, in fact, I felt no effect whatsoever of the “general strike” all day long. Obviously, the idea of walking out of our jobs and classes didn’t catch on to the general UCD community, for which I am grateful.
Believe it or not, UC students and faculty are are some of the most blessed Californians today. There are people who don’t have jobs or those who have to worry if they have a house to live next week. To walk out of the jobs and classrooms for which the taxpayers are generously paying us to do in this economic climate, is a shame and disgrace to the university, to say the least. I emphasize here that I am not disapproving the protest itself, just the strike.
Yes, I think public education should be better supported, maybe the UC administrators are overpaid, etc., but we have to be careful HOW we express those frustrations in light of the fact that we ARE still supported by the taxpayers.
>But in the end, the impact of this movement and the positive outcome
>is what is important, not the momentary taxpayer’s concern.
I agree that the impact is important, but I am afraid it will be for the negative. Your lack of respect for the taxpayers is exactly what is fueling the strong opponents against public higher education.
Access to higher education is a privilege, not a right. We have to remember that only a small fraction of Californians directly benefit from public higher education. If anything, K-12 should be of higher priority than UCs and CSUs. It is our responsibility to justify that public investment in higher education is well deserved and worthwhile, and I highly doubt that this strike and the overall “occupy” sentiment is going to help in that respect.
The end does NOT justify the means. That’s what I am saying.
HY- I’d love to know what department you teach in, not to out you, but because because I overheard many many students today talking about how all of their classes had been cancelled. I’m honestly shocked to hear you saw no effects of the protest.
“To walk out of the jobs and classrooms for which the taxpayers are generously paying us..”
I completely disagree with your kowtowing to the ‘almighty taxpayer’ who controls the purse strings. Funding for public education is worth fighting for, and in 2011 America you don’t get any attention by sitting at home and being good and doing what you are told. One day actions like this are how you get attention for the things that are important. We’re not shuttering the U for a semester. It was one day! How ridiculously obedient do you have to be to think a one day action is the wrong activity? In addition, I completely reject the notion (propagated by more than just you) that those with jobs should shut up and be greatful because others have it worse. That’s the statement used to keep people quiet, not the truth. Just because others have it worse doesn’t mean we should keep out mouths shut while we watch out jobs drift into oblivion.
>In addition, I completely reject the notion (propagated by
> more than just you) that those with jobs should shut up
> and be greatful because others have it worse.
I never meant to say shut up and be grateful. But spitting
at the taxpayers (which I consider striking is, in this case)
is NOT the right way nor is it effective.
we’ll have to agree to disagree. I can’t in any way see a one-day strike as ‘spitting at the taxpayers’.
Frankly, in my personal opinion, if the ‘taxpayers’ want the respect of the UC faculty, staff, and students, they need to go to their representatives and demand reinstatement of real funding. You can’t slash funding year after year and still expect that those you ‘fund’ are going to care at all what you think.
>Frankly, in my personal opinion, if the ‘taxpayers’ want
>the respect of the UC faculty, staff, and students, they
> need to go to their representatives and demand
>reinstatement of real funding. You can’t slash funding
>year after year and still expect that those you ‘fund’ are
> going to care at all what you think.
See, this sort of arrogance on our part is sensed by the general public. Unfortunately, the taxpayers are not begging for our respect. They expect it, which is perfectly reasonable if you think who is paying whom. WE need to earn THEIR respect, just like Katehi herself said she needs to earn your respect. You seem to expect everyone to respect you without doing your due diligence. It will not get us anywhere, especially when you are not the one controlling the wallet.
Don’t get me wrong. I am all for UC, and I work there. But I have been rather embarrassed by the arrogance on the part of the UC community.
I get your overall opinion, I truly do. But I don’t think it’s arrogance to expect the state to continue to fund public higher education. I think at some point it becomes a matter of self-respect and integrity. At some point you need to stop prostrating yourself and refuse to be badgered. It’s one thing to realize that money is tight and we need to tighten our belts and not complain. It’s another to see the state, and by extension the taxpayers, set about systematically reducing funding to levels that make it impossible to maintain a top-tier public university. At some point you have to say ‘no more’. And for a lot of us, it has reached that breaking point. I’d rather go down fighting for the UC than sitting by while it sinks.
I guess this is where we disagree. I don’t think fighting for public support for higher education is arrogant at all, but doing so by walking out of our jobs and classes is.
The fact that the “general strike” was hardly noticeable at all yesterday shows that majority of the UCD community don’t think that strike is justified or effective at this point.
You say you’d rather go down fighting. I’d rather not go down at all. A bad move (perhaps politically) on the part by even a small minority of our community can TAKE us down, just as we all have seen in this pepper spray fiasco. I fear that ill-guided strike and squatting tactics employed by the few of our community will bring us down further.
[...] of California Regents will get an earful on Monday when UC Davis students are calling for a system-wide strike. It’s about more than [...]
[...] Davis Enterprise: “UCD readies for strike; will regents attend meeting?” [...]
Cory — LOOK AT MY WEBSITE!!! 30 years ago I lived in Davis and I worked at the Davis BofA — I have a Banking Solution!!! It’s what all the Occupy Wall Street people around the world want to hear about! Oh — and the Davis Enterprise Newspaper first ran my Op-Ed Banking Solution piece 30 YEARS AGO TODAY ON 11/27/81!!! LOOK AT MY WEBSITE, AND TELL DEBBIE DAVIS THAT SHE NEEDS TO DO A NEW ARTICLE!!!
I really wish you would leave the faculty out of your little rant (I’ve seen it posted elsewhere). For one, the faculty are not in any way extravagantly compensated as a whole. Second, if we do as you say, and adjust compensation to “California’s ability to pay” the UC will become a shell of it’s former self, and you still won’t recognize the place you once cared for. In order to maintain a top-flight research university you must attract a certain level of talent, and that simply costs money. If you want to abandon the idea that the UC should be a top-tier university, that’s a pretty radical idea. I personally think that if the state wants the UC to remain a public university, they should fund it properly.
please stop leaving your borderline incoherent spam on pages
this is officially spamming this forum. go elsewhere, troll.
leave
what a way to ruin a nice conversation